Left In Lowell

Ogonowski and the “immigrant issue”

21 Responses to “Ogonowski and the “immigrant issue””

1. Always Right in Lowell Says:
   October 8th, 2007 at 12:45 pm

   Mimi: “Citizens and Registered Voters” are a far cry from Illegal! We all fall into the immigrant category in some way, whether we are new to the USA or 3rd or 4th or 5th generation. I’m suprised as well and pleased that the ‘illegals’ issue is dominating the race. That is very telling in that it shows how most of the population really feels when they aren’t afraid that speaking out isn’t politically correct and some bleeding heart will just down their throats and use all the usual weak arguments and scare tactics they usually throw around to sway the public. If you are not in the country legally, you are not welcome to help yourself to any benefit that we work so hard to achieve.

2. grizzled veteran Says:
   October 8th, 2007 at 1:12 pm

   Mimi, well said.

   We’ve seen these kind of appeals in Lowell before to fear and racism. It always shocks me that the loudest voices come from former immigrant families themselves. Somehow, their stories are all American, but these latest immigrants are stealing jobs, services and what’s next - babies? Illegal immigration is one thing, but hate mongering won’t solve anything. Shame on Mr. Ogonowski and his “swift boat” style Republican handlers.

3. MikeC01824 Says:
   October 8th, 2007 at 1:23 pm

   Fortunately, ARiL’s view is in the minority.

   We have long accepted that you don’t have to be a citizen to work in this country. We have a proud history of people coming here to find work, then becoming citizens. Immigrants wouldn’t come here if we didn’t have job opportunities for them.

   Employers hire immigrants or use the threat of them to lower the cost of wages and benefits. Those employers know the immigrants don’t have whatever paperwork is required to work here. Calling them “independent contractors” doesn’t really change this, but everyone (including Governor Romney) turns a blind eye.

   Immigrants pay taxes through payroll deductions, including social security. It’s unfair to deny them the benefits they’ve paid for. In this country, we have a proud history of rewarding people who work hard.

   The best thing we can do is create a fast-track process that permits immigrants to work here legally and with more oversight. The oversight is necessary to make sure that employers pay them competitive wages and benefits.

   This is a nation of immigrants. We should be proud of our history and recognize how much it has benefited our nation. Why tamper with a successful formula?

4. Right in Lowell Says:
   October 8th, 2007 at 2:23 pm

   What I failed to find in your post Mimi were any facts to dispute what Ogonowski and his supporters are saying. Do illegal immigrants NOT use our emergency rooms? Have our schools NOT been forced to adopt bilingual education? Is our Governor NOT looking to give them in-state tuition rates? Are they NOT putting a drain on our already overburdened systems? Are they not helping fill our crowded prisons and taxing our justice system? Is there NOT a security risk somewhere in that 10-12 million figure?

   I’m all for giving people a helping hand to make it in America, but far too many of today’s immigrants are looking for a hand out instead of an opportunity. Not all, but enough to strain our economy at a time when the rest of the world is catching up, or has caught up.

   My folks came here LEGALLY. They somehow managed to make it without speaking a work of English when they got here, without asking for any government assistance other than the right to make an honest living, without demanding the schools educate me and my sister in our native language which we spoke at home until we went to kindergarten. Their tale is like millions of others. All we ask is that those entering the country LEGALLY work as hard as our forebearers to make it, getting only a helping hand, not a handout.

   I’m not necessarily against trying to find a way to account for those here ILLEGALLY and grant them legal status. But amnesty, or whatever politically correct term you’d like to use to describe it, is not the answer if it means draining the ever-shrinking resources available.

   That’s not hate-mongering. It’s speaking the truth.

5. Prince Charming Says:
   October 8th, 2007 at 3:29 pm

   Bravo, RiL

6. Mimi Says:
   October 8th, 2007 at 4:19 pm

   RiL:

   What I find missing in your comments are the facts and figures behind your accusations that “illegal immigrants” take, and take, and take from our economy, our healthcare system, our social networks, our educational opportunities and in give nothing in return. And please do not ask me to prove a negative; that is show you that they do not do all of the things you accuse them of doing. You made the statement, you prove it.

   I found it interesting that you did not accuse them of taking our jobs…but then that would negate your comments that these “immigrants” come here looking for a “handout” as opposed to “opportunity.”

   Secondly, what is Ogonowski’s answer to this problem? Round them up, put them on bus, plane or boat and send them back.

   Obviously, I am not going to convince you, PC, Always… and others that Ogonowski is wrong. But what it has done is galvanized the Democrats to make sure we all come out to vote and make sure he does not represent the 5th District.

7. Right in Lowell Says:
   October 8th, 2007 at 4:52 pm

   Be glad to Mimi, but I’d max out your server with all the data available. Instead, I’ll post a couple of links that anyone interested in THE TRUTH can visit:

   The Center for Immigration Studies:
   http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

   “Among the highlights of their 2002 study: illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion.”

   Again, those number are BILLIONS, not millions.

   “Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).”

   “With nearly two-thirds of illegal aliens lacking a high school degree, the primary reason they create a fiscal deficit is their low education levels and resulting low incomes and tax payments, not their legal status or heavy use of most social services.”

   “On average, the costs that illegal households impose on federal coffers are less than half that of other households, but their tax payments are only one-fourth that of other households.”

   Shall I go on? Or would that hurt the process of galvanizing your forces?

8. Josh Says:
   October 8th, 2007 at 4:59 pm

   Right in Lowell,

   I would even argue that immigrants pay far more in taxes than they receive in government benefits. So no, they are not a drain on the system, they are actually an asset. (Free trade includes the free flow of labor in addition to capital and resources)

   The fact that they are illegal is more of an indicator than anything else. It indicates that the system is broken. We aren’t issueing nearly enough visas to meet the demand. Illegal immigration will continue until we start doing that. period.

   That being said, I don’t agree with Ogonowski’s plan, but I hate the people who automatically cry “racism!” The reason Ogonowski is gaining alot of support on this issue is because, rightly or wrongly, it appeals to people’s sense of fairness. No one liked the kid in school who “cut” you in line. This is the same principle.

9. waittilnextyr Says:
   October 8th, 2007 at 5:05 pm

   A blast from the past.

   The Know Nothing movement was a nativist American political movement of the 1850s. It was empowered by popular fears that the country was being overwhelmed by Irish Catholic immigrants, who were often regarded as hostile to American values and controlled by the Pope in Rome. Mainly active from 1854–56, it strove to curb immigration and naturalization, though its efforts met with little success. There were few prominent leaders, and the largely middle-class and Protestant membership fragmented over the issue of slavery, most often joining the Republican Party by the time of the 1860 presidential election.

   The movement originated in New York in 1843 as the American Republican Party. It spread to other states as the Native American Party and became a national party in 1845. In 1855 it renamed itself the American Party. The origin of the “Know Nothing” term was in the semi-secret organization of the party. When a member was asked about its activities, he was supposed to reply, “I know nothing.”

10. Right in Lowell Says:
    October 8th, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    Here’s one more for you: The Federation for American Immigration Reform

    http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=research_research2fdc

    estimates that illegal immigration costs the Massachusetts K-12 system nearly $120,000,000 a year (I believe that’s from a 2005 study)

    Now, I understand you can counter with “studies” from people on your side of the issue, but even those do admit there is a cost associated with illegal immigration. The only thing in dispute is how big the cost is.

    I doubt this information will change your mind Mimi, but since you asked for it, I figured I’d oblige.

    P.S. They do take jobs. They just don’t pay their fair share of taxes when they do. And no, it doesn’t negate my argument, because a fair share of them have their hand out, too.

11. lowelian Says:
    October 8th, 2007 at 6:00 pm

    Ask the American Indian what happens when you don’t control immigration!!!

12. Mimi Says:
    October 8th, 2007 at 8:21 pm

    RiL:

    Are you serious? You are quoting from two related anti-immigration “think tanks” and you want me these “facts.”

13. Lynne Says:
    October 8th, 2007 at 9:09 pm

    RiL, you’re actually wrong. They actually do pay more in taxes than they get in services. What’s more, generally speaking, the hardest working people in an economy tend to be immigrants - however they got here. This tendency is partly because they are able to see their way up the ladder, having come from a worse situation to the US, and believe they can raise their standard of living (and those of their kids) as a result. Our own citizens born and living in poverty, however, grow up with the reality which is that upward mobility is far harder (nearly impossible unless you’re exceptional) to accomplish than the myth says, and therefore do not have the incentive that an immigrant worker does. This is what we have to change, we have to make upward mobility more possible and therefore, decrease poverty. Instead, we’ve widened the gap between rich and poor for the last few decades (with a small respite in the Clinton era) with the average working man’s salary worth less and less.

    And anyone who says that this sort of campaign that Ogo’s running doesn’t play to racism is living in a bubble.

    We used to say the same thing about Irish people, as waittil says, didn’t we? We should look back on those times and be ashamed of that. So should we when we encounter its contemporary cousin.

14. iminthe middle Says:
    October 8th, 2007 at 9:52 pm

    FYI: A blast from the past history of Lowell - Chauncy Langdon Knapp was elected to the U.S. House of Representatives in 1854 as a member of the American Party. He represented Lowell, Massachusetts. He was elected in 1856 as a Republican. He was a “Know-Nothing.” In the fall of 1854 - this nativist, anti-immigrant party swept the elections in Massachusetts. Henry Joseph Gardner a rampant Know-Nothing became Governor of Massachusetts and among many of his anti-immigrant, anti-Catholic, anti-Irish actions was an attempt to discredit the Notre Dame nuns at St. Patrick’s Parish and School in Lowell. Fortunately, the reckless and questionable conduct of his own investigators while in Lowell caused the investigation to be suspect and a failure. He also disarmed the 9th Massachusetts Regiment of Militia which was made up almost entirely of Irish immigrants. They marched and paraded without weapons because of his fear of armed immigrants - even in the performance of their duty to protect the Commonwealth.

15. Right in Lowell Says:
    October 9th, 2007 at 11:15 am

    And your facts come from where? You guys make sweeping blanket statements, none of which are supported by any fact, yet I’m the one who’s wrong?

    Present a statistical analysis that doesn’t show that illegal immigration is a cost to society, and maybe you’ll have some credibility outside your little leftist social circle. Till then, go eat some fruit. I’ll stick to meat and potatoes.

16. Lynne Says:
    October 9th, 2007 at 1:26 pm

    How about we go real local for starters…towns which passed anti-illegal-immigration law are reversing themselves because it killed their local economy?

17. Mr. Lynne Says:
    October 9th, 2007 at 1:39 pm

    Careful what you wish for.

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DE7D91331F935A1575AC0A9619C8B63

18. Lynne Says:
    October 9th, 2007 at 2:35 pm

    lol jinks. ;P

19. Right in Lowell Says:
    October 9th, 2007 at 6:52 pm

    Right! The NY Times. There’s an independant voice for ya!

    There’s no denying illegal immigrants provide cheap labor, and even revenue for businesses. But again, find me the study that says it isn’t a drain on the economy when you factor in ALL the financial factors, including how much it costs to educate them, treat them and police them.

    Perhaps that town in New Jersey should bring in Bernie Lynch to help build a sound economy based on opportunity and growth instead of one based on slave labor, right Mimi, Lynne and Mr. Lynne? Or perhaps Eileen Donahue can head out there and run for Mayor?

    Sorry, couldn’t resist that one!

20. Lynne Says:
    October 9th, 2007 at 8:58 pm

    *rolls eyes*

    That’s right, because there are no facts, just spin, right? It’s not like there was something to report - that people are finding anti-immigrant laws ruining their local economies.

    RiL, you aren’t even really worth answering on your comment. It’s beneath you.

21. Right in Lowell Says:
    October 10th, 2007 at 12:17 pm

    Lynne, your entire argument is beneath me.

    Following your logic and that article’s, the rest of the United States should do away with the minimum wage and protections for its workers because our economy has suffered and we’ve lost jobs to foreign countries who rely on cheap/slave labor? Isn’t that the gist of this article’s argument? We couldn’t make do without the cheap/slave labor of illegal immigrants, so we’ll just give in and let them stay.

    Should Lowell bring back the Mill girls, too, to recover the industry the textile industry that disappeared?

    Honestly, you should listen to yourself sometimes. You sound like a Republican!

Leave a Reply