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August 7th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
One thing that is missing from this argument is that police can shut down the job if there are safety issues. I know more than a few police officers that have been assigned to details with companies that have less then safe practices and have actually shut down the job. They may not be stopping lots of crimes from happening on details (there are some) but they do help promote safety on the jobsite. I have no problem with cutting their details as long as we double their saleries. Do you really want to put your life in danger for $45,000
August 7th, 2008 at 2:38 pm
So, just so I’m clear on this: the police officer, who needs to be on the site, waiving the traffic through and stopping other cars, in order to avoid a serious safety hazard, is going to run, not walk, after a car that does something stupid, leaving the construction site without anyone controlling traffic, in order to spend a few minutes bawling out/giving a ticket to/arresting somebody. Because it’s unsafe to have these sites operating without a police officer controlling traffic.
Sure. That makes sense.
August 7th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Kpem. Sure that is missing, but I’m not sure it’s very salient. Certainly safety is a concern, but it’s a concern for everyone on a job site. This is what OSHA training and foremen concern themselves with all the time. It’s not like safety isn’t a concern on jobsites in other states. I’d have to see some statistics about jobsite injuries with and without police presence to be convinced. Most of these safety issues could be caught much more economically by a municipality employing a an OSHA inspector. More to the point… OSHA’s more likely to hit them where it hurts, not just by shutting down the job but fining them on top of that.
August 7th, 2008 at 4:34 pm
OSHA is not there at the moment a dump truck backs into traffic. I just feel that this will accomplish a petty amount of savings after the flaggers are unionized and paid prevailing wage rates. We will also need a department set up to handle the flaggers. (More $) and I am concerned that many people may be enticed by the money and not realize the danger.
August 7th, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Nothing like an OSHA fine (usually about $2000) to get a company’s attention when a worker dies on an unsafe job site!!
August 7th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
So I guess the other states who have regular folks flag at construction sites are doing it wrong? There must be a rash of unchecked traffic violations and safety concerns that they’re missing! Somehow I think not…just lame excuses by people trying to protect the goose that lays the golden egg.
Guess if they can’t flag anymore, there would be a proliferation of cop owned bars!
August 7th, 2008 at 8:40 pm
Citation Anonymous?
August 7th, 2008 at 9:14 pm
I think it would be naive to believe that OSHA is out policing job sites. Quite a few of the road crews speak very limited English and are given poor work conditions and as Anonymous said the fines are a joke. I am personally familiar with sites that the officer on detail had shut down for safety issues and on several sites the officer had the foreman give the men breaks (they had none all day).
August 7th, 2008 at 10:01 pm
My concern about this is that folks like the Airlines, the Air Force and now even the Army have learned that there is a reasonable working day and when someone works longer than that or shows up with insufficient time off, bad things happen. Here we have people carrying guns who do this work in addition to their regular job. That is just wrong. IF we need police to do this, then it should be part of their regular job and they should be paid by towns and cities to do this work (maybe compensated by the construction company, which charges it on the contract–so the tax payers end up paying for it). I do agree with what I think kpem is saying about pay. If the police have come to depend upon this work as part of their regular income, then we need to have a sliding scale to help them down–or give all police more pay. And, we need to hire more police so this is a natural part of their work.
The other option is to give this work to college students and others who need the work, finding a way to help the police get over this pay issue.
But, it comes back to “crew duty day.” In my time flying for the Air Force my crew duty day limits were only waived once. This is serious business. And, the bad outcome may not show up at the construction site, but rather in terms of bad judgement while on regular duty later on.
Regards — Cliff
August 7th, 2008 at 10:25 pm
Cliff, I agree w/ most facets of your post. Police details are onerous and budget busting.
Too many times, just like many out there, I’ve come across a police detail, yes in Lowell, where the officer pays no mind to the traffic issues that might arise due to road work and there they stand with a cell phone permanently attached to his ear and/or a DD cup in hand looking into the hole w/ 7 other laborer.
And if, kpem, you beleive they should make more money to augment there income in lieu opf details, I hope that you are at the head of the line to pay those enormous costs over their lifetime (in retirement benefits).
No doubt, law enforcement and fire personnel do the job that many will not do, but that’s relative (all depends on personal preferance! Not many folks out there who want to do my job, pay..not so great and def. not so easy. Fact is, details are “side work”, not a privilege, which is what it has become at enormous expense to the consumer.
August 8th, 2008 at 7:44 am
Atleast we have alot of grants now from homeland security that will augment the police pay and help stop gang violence. The pay will not go away it will just be reallocated in Massachusetts.
August 8th, 2008 at 8:27 am
lets see how many police details we see starting
august 25 when the textile bridge is closed ,there is no
compensation in standind there directing traffic, what poor
planning on the part of the city, one week before the college
comes back
August 8th, 2008 at 9:26 am
We can argue this forever but this is Massachusetts, the unions rule and Patrick doesn’t have a prayer. It needs to be a binding referendum. We can go and and one with anecdotal evidence to support arguments on either side. My HUGE problem is with the officer carrying a gun who has worked a 7A-3P detail and then goes on duty from 5P-1A not just once in a while but day after day. How effectively is that person doing their ‘real’ job.
We pay $75/hour for details with a 4 hour minimum… a damn good part time job! It would be a great small business for someone to supply flaggers for whatever jobs there are and it would be nowhere near $75 hour. College kids would be perfect… it will never happen in MA, they have us by the *****!
August 8th, 2008 at 9:45 am
So kpem all other 49 states in the union don’t care about worksite safety. Are you really serious? Every time I hear the police unions defend this cash cow it just boggles my mind. I don’t know how you can keep a straight face. I really believe deep down that many of teh police officers know it makes no sense. Let’s be honest they’re just protecting their turf. I get that. But to try and justify it is absurd. Please, your posting is such a lame excuse by an obvious police officer. There are plenty of police details at nightclubs etc that many times go unfilled in Lowell because you’d rather have the cushy daytime construction site detail. This proposal would not eliminate details for police officers. Just the unnecessary construction site details. Police officers just want to talk on their cellphones and make a minimum 4 hours at exorbitant rates of pay. A flagman can do just as good a job as a police officer. If memory recalls there was an accident just recently on 495 in a construction site where a worker was killed when his own crew ran him over. Where was the cop? Probably talking on his cellphone or listening to his ipod. Do cops really think the public is that stupid that we’re going to believe the crock we’re being fed? We’re not. Putting on civilian flagmen would reduce the cost of public construction jobs. That’s the bottom line. And while the Governor is at it, he ought to look at the “prevailing” wage. I don’t know where those wages are prevailing, but it’s not anywhere I’ve been. When you’re paying $30.00 for a laborer to push a wheelbarrow, the cost of the job is driven up significantly. That guy is probably making $15.00 in the real world. That’s why we are at such a disadvantage in getting new roads and bridges in this State. NH has a prevailing wage and it’s nowhere near what is “prevailing” in MA. Why do you think they have a superior transportation system? I really hope the Governor does something but I highly doubt it. He ran away from it once already out of fear of the police unions. All they need to do is show up at the Statehouse in their uniforms and everyone crumbles. It’s ridiculous. I didn’t vote for Gov. Patrick but if he gets this through the legislature I promise to vote for him the next time. I have a feeling I’m not going to have to worry.
August 8th, 2008 at 11:18 am
If I get your inference on Homeland Security grants, those funds do not or should not pay for road work details. There have been many instances since 9/11 where Homeland Security grants were needlessly granted to low priority communities, that were less likely to be subject to a security threat. FYI, homeland security grants are still “our” tax dollars and I’d like a say in the matter.
And you’re right Kami, all they have to do is show up in uniform, en masse and will likely fail.
However, as I pondered this issue this morning, in the middle of a huge traffic back up (w/ a police detail) at a road work crew, I came to the conclusion that the best weapon the Guv has in his arsenal is to have this issue as referendum, where the folks paying the bills,(WOW) actually get to vote on how their money is spent.
August 8th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Kami, I am not a police officer but I am a family member of many. Anyone that thinks a flagging job would be safe for college students is not informed. Google flagger or flagging deaths and see the results.
August 8th, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Again, I state that the use of flagmen going to referendum could be a great tool for our Guv. Wish I had detail work at $40 an hour..HA!
I would think that the cases profiled in an internet search, highlight a VERY small percentage of “flagmen” in the other 49 states.
Jut because one is employed in the field of law enforcement does not exempt them from injury.
August 9th, 2008 at 11:22 pm
KPEM,
So which cop is the one looking for safety concerns, the one making a mess of the traffic situation (something anyone can do) or the one in the cruiser with the cup of DD and the sports section (yes, I saw this last week in Hamilton or Wenham)?
August 12th, 2008 at 11:55 am
Q: What do you call a backdoor plan to get 15,000 conservative white men with guns to vote for Barack Obama?
A: Deval Patrick’s Police Detail Proposal
I’ll be here all week, try the fish.
If he goes to Washington this thing is deader than dead. At best he stays and it is a very watered down bill subject to local option, and we all know how that will go.
Not to mention most of these details are covered in every police collective bargaining contract in the state, subject to negotiating them out. I can’t wait to see that court case. A new law that subverts collective bargaining contracts. Should be fun….for the lawyers.
Not to throw a wet blanket on this, but even if you hire flagmen it still is a prevailing wage state, they will likely work for an entity that is unionized, you will have to pay benefits per contract, staff them per OSHA safety rules and pay their healthcare costs, social security/unemployment/medicare/401k. The company will try to make a profit on top of that. The utilities and contractors will pass on the cost to you no matter who is standing there. Though every little bit helps, I don’t see a major windfall, unless you factor it in over a very long time (which is a great trick the Widmers and Andersons of the world like to do for the paper. “If factored in over infinity this will be exorbitant!” Gee Really?) They also like to ignore any growth when they do the calculations.
The government will end up paying for benefits and other payroll taxes on these employees indirectly through the bid process on public jobs. The consumers may see a small change from whichever company can lower costs and push out competition by doing so, but it will be minimal amounts based on the other costs they have to take on for new employees. If utilities itemized this clearly in the bill it would give a better idea on the actual costs incurred by the consumer, but I know it isn’t very clear to me how much it costs.
With details, while it may be politically unpopular OT for not much heavy lifting, there are no additional benefits, payroll taxes and such required, plus they get taxed higher too. As it stands the police are esentially working as contractors on details right now. You pay for their benefits as part of their regular employment, but those are covered by budgets already and the overtime is not part of any Massachusetts public pensions (regular compensation only). Since these details are part of bargaining agreements I doubt most managers would agree to a substantially higher pay rate unless they knew they would pay the same amount for it somewhere else. Regardless of outside construction work, any city mandated details have to be time and a half because it is considered part of their regular duties.
Anyone can claim fatigue is an issue, but police will find more work somewhere else if they want it, details or not. It is up to them to look out for their own personal safety as much as ours. People need to realize you can’t limit what work people perform when you aren’t paying them. When they say civil “servant” they don’t mean it THAT way. I don’t know too many people who haven’t worked a second job at some point in their life and a lot more people drive tired and crash their cars than get shot by sleepy cops. Ask any soldier, cop or fireman, when real prolonged emergencies happen there is no such thing as a time limit on hours worked, you do the best you can until more help arrives.
Believe me the cops are their own worst enemies on this. If they looked even half interested in their job and busted their tail for public safety on the job sites people wouldn’t be half as annoyed by the details. But if you have a “Dunks” in one hand and a cell phone in the other, you aren’t directing a lot of traffic.
If your argument is for more new “good jobs” with benefits, I can see the point, but you are still taking the money away from somewhere else and paying close to top dollar anyway. This isn’t “new” money injected in the economy, just shifted money. Its not a right for police to have detail work, but something that has been negotiated for in most cases. While I’m sure it will make a lot of people happy to see the police details go away, don’t expect this to be a magic pill that will save the bottom line in a big way.
FYI, As I sit here looking at the city chart on the bridge closings, I see there will be 5 police details, twice a day begining weekdays 8/25 for who knows how long.
August 12th, 2008 at 6:21 pm
When I came to Lowell, I walked into a dunk’n donuts and saw a cop pay for his coffee.
I was shocked, In my hometown (NJ near NYC), I’d never seen that.
If cops are getting $75 to stand around and drink coffee and yank on the cell phone, they are much less likely to take the extra trouble to make extra money the hard way. (acccepting bribes, stealing drug evidence, extortion, etc)
I’m all for paying the cops enough money for them to feel like they’ve got something to lose if they step over the line.
August 13th, 2008 at 6:54 am
OK Dan.. your case for details is so they won’t be ‘accepting bribes, stealing drug evidence, extorting, etc’. Wow, great argument!
Guess what…SOME cops are on details while taking bribes, stepping over the line, extorting and stealing.
Here I come lizbeth, I’ve heard it all now!
August 13th, 2008 at 8:27 pm
The city also receives a percentage from each police detail that is worked. Now the percentage (10%) will be shifted to an administrative fee charged by private companies that are who knows whos cronies in the state. Another way to shift money around and away from Lowell and towns that need it. Lets watch out who starts these flagging companies and then see how happy we are for stuffing their pockets.
August 14th, 2008 at 8:04 am
kpem… what’s wrong with an entrepreneur starting a flagging company. I would think it would be a great small business and the competition between them would set the market rate. It would also be an ideal area for existing security companies to branch out. It seems to be working in 49 other states, why is MA different? At least there will be a competitive bidding process not just a set 4 hour fee. We pay $75/hr flat rate for a mandated 4hr minimum even if they show up late, sit in their cars, talk on the phone, drink coffee and leave early as they usually do. Who are you going to complain to, another cop?
Flag people would be hired for whatever time frame they are needed and if they sit in the car, etc. they will not be invited back. Give us the option of hiring whomever we want. If your arguments prove true, we can always go back but I doubt that will happen.
August 14th, 2008 at 9:43 am
I kind of doubt that there will be companies that spring up and specialize in ‘flagging’. I’d imagine that liability would be an issue in that as soon as your company was involved in one incident your business might go down the tubes. More likely individual construction firms will include flagging labor in their own cost estimates and role them into their cost for Maintenance of Traffic (MOT). That’s just my hunch.
August 14th, 2008 at 7:59 pm
The “flag” companies are already in the works and to no surprise the potential owners have a few close political friends. They will receive the 10% fee that the towns now receive.